Also, I feel like I can't write about GoT without mentioning how the showrunners stole Stannis Baratheon's plot and gave it to Jon Snow because they think Stannis is the Westerosi version of ISIS. They're fortunate they killed him off because Stannis always serves thieves according to their just desserts. Screw 'em!
Now that's out of the way, let's move on and start with my favorite, Yara Greyjoy. While not the prettiest girl on the show, I like her costume the best, mostly because I love long coats. But leather breastplates help too! Her armor made me want to write a story about Jeanette in armor, which I will be doing next week.
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| Just for fan service |
Next up is Nymeria Sand. A lot of people don't like the sand snakes, and think they are cartoonish. That and the show took a bad plotline from the books and made it worse. Still, everyone loves a beautiful woman with a whip! Nymeria inspired me to write a story set in the Angrian March, which I am still working on. I may release it in parts here on the blog.
Also, I can't believe I got through a whole post on GoT without nudity. I was going to post Tyene Sand, but I couldn't find any good shots of the prison scene.
The only badpoint about Yara Greyjoy's armour is as to why, in a world which at that point has Plate armour, she decide's to go with Cuir boulli or something similar as a cuirass.
ReplyDeleteNot that I have any problem with leather armour or anything, but you would think that she'd go with something that would offer more protective qualities.
I'd have to say, I really like Brienne's armour the best, She just looks bad-ass with the dark plate and everything!
God, I feel like such a medieval nerd!
She wears it because it's easier to swim in leather than in plate.
DeleteGotta remember though that the Iron Born fight primarily (and best) at sea, spending long periods of time on ships. Salt water would do pretty bad things to most metal armour over any extended period of time, plus leather (even boiled leather or brigandine) is a fair bit lighter than chain or plate, which would also be a huge asset in naval battles.
Delete(Part one of two!)
DeleteSalt water would indeed be a real bitch to steel/iron armours! (There are examples of ancient navies using their older bronze cuirasses and bronze weapons whilst their mainland counterparts where mostly equipped with iron weapons.)
However, I do not believe that a Brigandine or Cuir bouili chestplate would be all that much, if at all, lighter than a maile coat. Infact, I believe that the lightest armour that Yara could be wearing would infact be a metal breastplate! (Front and backplate)
Examples of existant maile haubegeon's (Maile shirts) of the period of around 1300-1400, generally of a rivetted construction, usually weigh between 6-9 kg's. The weight will of course vary between the thickness of the rings, the size of the rings and as to how densely woven the maile garment in question is constructed.
Brigandines (And by extension, their older cousins the Coat of plates also) can vary largely in weight, thanks to the difference in the sizes of and thicknesses of the given plates. For example, there is a 16th century brigandine (http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/71388.html) that weighs in at 10.6 kg's (23.4 lbs for Front and back added), while there is also another example made from less plates which weights in at around 8.5 kg's. (That example, however was found missing a section, so it's weight would have been a little bit heavier.)
Boiled leather is a very hard example to get a determined figure out of, since there are little (If any) remaining examples of armour of Cuir boilli (In that I have not seen 'Medieval European' examples or museum pieces of boiled leather armour. Although you do find examples of boiled leather scales in Middle eastern, Slavic, Chinese and Japanese examples, you rarely see solid, singular pieces of boiled leather armour surviving, if at all.)
Otherwise, if boiled leather armour was to be used, it would have to be of some thickness in order to provide adequate protection against thrusting-based impacts (Polearm/spear impacts, crossbow bolts, arrows and half-sworded thrusts come to mind). And, as a result of this thickness of the armour, you would invariably end up with an armour that would be quite heavy, perhaps somewhere in the region of 6-10 kg's. Again, this is a very questionable figure, due to the fact that armour of this type rarely exists, and so I must rely largely on supposition and largely on hearsay, mainly from SCA enthusiasts and re-enactors on what they feel the armour of a Cuir boilli should weigh.
Alternatively, I am sure that one could look up for LARP or SCA examples for Leather armours, but one is never sure if the details of the modern armour will be very accurate to the Medieval examples as they would have existed in their own time.
A plate cuirass can also change weight depending on many factors. However, a weight of between 3-5 kilograms is not a bad figure to start with for a cuirass (Front and back plate). A Cuirass designed for tournament's were sometimes 'double-plated' on the front, so a weight of between 5-10 kilograms is a good starting range. Armour designed to be 'proof' against pistol's (English Civil War examples) are known to be very heavy indeed, and a figure of around 10 kilograms and above can be found in surviving examples, and are often made of sheets of iron between 2-4mm in thickness.
(Part 2 of 2)
DeleteMaile haubergeon with short sleeves and skirt, rivetted links = 6-9 kgs
Brigandine (With shoulders and faulds as are often depicted), made of many plates = 6-10 kgs
Cuir bouili chestplate, front and backplate (Perhaps 4-6mm thick and waxed)= 6-10? kgs
Plate harness (Front and backplate only) made of 15th century equivalent mild steel, with work hardening = 2.5-5 kilograms
This is of course counting only on the torso protection, which is what Yara is seen wearing in the above image. I am also assuming that she is wearing some kind of textile/padded armour beneath her boiled leather chestplate.
Overall, a steel breastplate ought to be one of the lighter armours to use to cover the torso, with the maile haubergeon coming in at a little heavier (Whilst offering slightly more coverage than the breast and back plate, thanks to the sleeve and skirt), and the Brigandine and Cuir bouili breastplate would presumably come in at around the same weight range as eachother. Maile of a denser weave would also come in at about the same weight range as the Brigandine.
In full harness, plate armour is indeed heavier than chain or brigandine armour (Field armour in a lighter configuration usually weighed about 20kgs, whilst armour in a heavier configuration weighted between 25-30kgs on average, of about the early-mid 15th Century), but what is usually misunderstood is as to how well the weight of plate-armour is distributed through the body. I have friends who complain about wearing rivetted maile all day long, but I never hear that many complaints from the guy's in plate. They only ever complain about the breathing in their visors, not about their armour!
Not to mention, most people who wear brigandines are also going to be arming themselves with plate spaulders (Or alternatively, jack-chains), gauntlets, poleyns, greaves and other such plate defenses, as cost permits them. So the discussion of plate armour being heavier than 'Brigandine' is not always correct, because most combatants would go for as much defense as is possible. In the discussion of Brigandine and chestplate, the chestplate would usually weigh less because it is not made up of many parts that are rivetted to a textile or leather frame.
Anyhow, I think that was enough rambling from me. I might be wrong in a few places, but generally, plate armour, as worn on the battlefield, is not as heavy as most people would try to have you believe. No, seriously, I want to bitchslap 'academics' who insist that tournament armour is an accurate depiction of a field harness!
And so ends the rant of Sir Anonymous Anonington of Anonymalia, Knighted by King 'Anonymous Wank' and raised to the Peerage of High Anon. I, Sir Anonymous Anonington hope to remain Anon, if only to not be discovered for writing a 1000 word rant on armours on a Blogsite about an author (High Praises upon thee Orc Dominion, for I am not worthy!), writing great tales of Orc's dominating women and other such bawdy tales.
Hey, if you're going to waste time enjoying tales of orcs storming castle and dominating women they should at least be historically accurate! ;)
DeleteThanks or all the info, though I'll probably half to read it a half dozen more times before understanding all of it.
Seriously though, I appreciate all the knowledge my readers bring to the table. I do like to be as accurate as possible!
Well, the real problem with Yara's armor is that it has breast forms. That's not very realistic. But I think the design mixed with the rest of her wardrobe just looks cooler than Brienne's armor.
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of interesting though, other than the Reach and the Kingsguard we don't see plate mail all that often on the show. Most people seem to prefer leather, especially in the Iron Islands and the North.
Interesting! I had never heard of coat of plate armor before. Now I just lost a half hour reading about it.
DeleteIt's funny, I did a lot of research on taxes, horses, army composition etc...but I haven't done much on weapons and armor since I assumed that video games and dungeons & dragons would point me in the right direction. I should have known better!
" armor since I assumed that video games and dungeons & dragons would point me in the right direction"
Delete:D hell no.
https://www.youtube.com/user/neosonic66
https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
These guys should give you the general idea, though the focus on late medieval period, on which we have more sources, but you an find things about chain mail, for example.
Design wise, https://ospreypublishing.com/store/military-history/period-books/medieval-warfare
and art of Angus McBride (who illustrated works of Tolkien) I wind inspiring ans useful.
':D hell no.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/user/neosonic66
https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria'
Damn it, I thought I was the only one here who knew stuff about armour and weapons... :P
However, I would be a little cautious with some of Osprey's works, since some of them were 'apparently' biased, or otherwise based on old and outdated information that has since been revised. Otherwise though, when it comes to portraying most European armies and kingdoms, they are pretty spot-on most of the time.
This short story that you mentioned is set in the Angrian Marsh is intriguing and I wish to learn more. That's orc territory, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteYes it is. It is about a scholarly merchant's daughter from the Eastrn Kingdoms who organizes an expedition into the Angrian March to study the ruins of a fallen civilization and runs into several misadventures along the way.
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